Curse

Arrow-bow · Dec 19, 2005, 12:45 PM // 12:45

So im using air in PvP is air so good than some guys have told?or isnt it good magig at all?

Scourgey · Dec 19, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Magic! Not Magig.

For PvE, it's better to use area effect spells, these are usually found in the fire tree.

Xasew · Dec 19, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Clearly you're new.

PvP:

-Air is for quickly doing alot of dmg to a single target. This is called "spiking".
-Fire has alot of spells that are AoE(area-of-effect). Fire can be devastating if used right. Skilled teams know to spread out against fire elementalists, though.
-Earth has wards, which are areas that protect your team or harm the enemy team(Ward vs. Foes slows them down for example). Some protective enchantments and Obsidian Flame, which is an awesome spiking skill.
-Water has craploads of snares, and is extremely protective.

Elrodien · Dec 19, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Magig!! hehe

Skuld · Dec 19, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Earth for me

immolatus · Dec 19, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

I've used all but water. They are all good if you know how to use them.

Air for spiking
Earth for Def and decent dmg
Fire great AoE but long Cast time.

yangster · Dec 19, 2005, 09:49 PM // 21:49

It depends what your doing in PvE or arenas and how your team plays in PvP.

Ensign · Dec 19, 2005, 11:32 PM // 23:32

In PvP, Air and Earth are generally the best. Air has a pretty good spiking ability with Lightning Orb and Mind Shock, while Chain Lightning and Lightning Strike are good for efficient pressure damage. That they give you a pair of solid support spells, Windborne Speed and Gale, should not be glossed over either. Hence, Air Eles are your staple PvP elementalists. Earth is a solid support class with Wards, and you can still contribute reasonably well to spikes with Obsidian Flame. It's not an offensive line at all, but for a more defensive build that still wants some spike capacity they're solid.

PvE is mostly the realm of the Fire Ele, as killing single targets quickly or pressuring monks isn't nearly as important as just dealing as much damage as possible. That you burn out quickly really isn't a concern when you get to rest between skirmishes. Earth Eles have a place here, too, as their great defense makes them solid solo characters.

Air Elementalists are poor in PvE as single target damage and especially spike damage really doesn't carry the premium it does in PvP. They're playable in some situations, but never really excel. All their utility is much less important, as well. Fire Elementalists aren't strictly unplayable in PvP, but they run into a couple of important walls - namely, cooldowns. The vast majority of Fire Elementalist skills have long cooldowns, which leads to poor slot utility and inflexible, shallow characters. Blowing 6-7 long cooldown spells with all your energy might work in PvE but that doesn't amount to anything in PvP. That Fire has twice as many offensive skills as Air, but not even half as many playables, is a really sad indicator of the state of that line.

Water isn't bad, really, it's just painfully shallow. Think Fire, but with even worse cooldowns, and without a critical mass of nukes that you can throw at the problem. Your only staple is Water Trident, and blowing your elite on a role that really needs 2-3 skills to fly isn't going to cut it. This isn't to say that Water is a bad line, simply that any character that's Water specced is realistically going to be a Monk or Mesmer with some Water snares to support.

Peace,
-CxE

BBoy_Manchild · Dec 20, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

magig.... right
my advice is to use earth magig
get ward against melee and kinetic armor
stone daggers might look like weak damage but they can be fired really fast and with earth attunment and elemental attunment you can fire them forever

another route is to go full on offensive with earth, if you are necro secondary you can use enfeeble and stoning, if not go enervating charge then stoning, use ob flame whenever you can, and when a warrior is rushing you use aftershock after stoning

yangster · Dec 20, 2005, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Water is good in pvp if you like to annoy people to death in arenas by blinding them and slowing them down constantly. It happened to me constantly and I got pissed.

Killin_Frenzy · Dec 20, 2005, 03:20 AM // 03:20

It really depends on your play style and your team but for i reckon earth is the way to go.

Yanman.be · Dec 20, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

I like earth alot! i can solo everything untill the southern shiverpeaks with just earth and aura of restauration

Lady Frost Bite · Dec 20, 2005, 02:55 PM // 14:55

its best if you get used to playing all of the elements unlock or get all the skills you can for each that way if you are in tombs or team arenas you can adapt to whatever your group needs.i play all elements depending on what my group/guild needs i found that fire was the best for pve before the nerf. and since the nerf i play a warrior.

Gwenhywar · Dec 20, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

What Ensign said ... can't really want any better explanation than that (even if it might be a bit too advanced for the OP, since he probably is playing in CA).

Robster Lobster · Dec 21, 2005, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Soul Barbs and water magic= fun

a cadet · Dec 21, 2005, 01:41 AM // 01:41

I dont actually know how old this post is, but i have to disagree with Ensign on some points.

In PvP, Fire Elementalists are actually quite usefull. Using Arcane Echo on Flameburst, and then just spamming it with 2 Attunements on is quite a considerable amount of damage. I dont really understand what he means by long cooldowns on Fire Elementalist skills either. For example, Fireball has a 7 second recharge, Flameburst a 5 second recharge, Rodgerts Invocation has a short recharge (I dont remember the number)... etc. On top of that, using Meteor Shower on an altar provides you with several seconds of interupts, as well as damage.

On the other hand, Air Elementalists are restricted to attacking one target. Alone, an Air Elementalist wont be able to kill anything past 3 monks, which implies the attack must be part of some kind of spike. Not all teams are strictly spike teams, so this narrows the use of an Air Elementalist. The utility skills he mentioned, Gale and Windborne Speed, both function well at 5 and 9 Air Magic, respectively. They can be effectively placed on someone whos attributes arent stretched that much.

As to PvE, all i can say is that the AoE-patch certainly reduced the effectiveness of Fire Elementalists. This does not mean Air Elementalists are suddenly better than Fire Elementalists in PvE; in fact i still think Fire Elementalists work well there, they just arent as good as they used to be.

In conclusion, i think Ensign's post is old (written before the change to Fire Elementalists and other changes), so if it is, sorry for pointing you out

Rico Carridan · Dec 21, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

I dont actually know how old this post is, but i have to disagree with Ensign on some points.

In PvP, Fire Elementalists are actually quite usefull. Using Arcane Echo on Flameburst, and then just spamming it with 2 Attunements on is quite a considerable amount of damage. I dont really understand what he means by long cooldowns on Fire Elementalist skills either. For example, Fireball has a 7 second recharge, Flameburst a 5 second recharge, Rodgerts Invocation has a short recharge (I dont remember the number)... etc. On top of that, using Meteor Shower on an altar provides you with several seconds of interupts, as well as damage.

I've seen this type of build before, and yes, it can be quite effective. In terms of cooldown, flame burst, fireball, immolate, and flare are the only fire spells that can be cast faster than once every 10 seconds. Some others that can be very powerful (meteor, phoenix, meteor shower, for example) have much longer cooldowns. Combine that with the fact that trying to cast meteor, meteor shower, fire storm, rodgort invocation, etc. in PvP is just begging to be interrupted. Fine for arenas maybe, but a drunken mesmer or a blind ranger could interrupt you casting those. And for many fire spells, the powerful PvP strategy of "walking 5 steps to the side" can be employed to great effectiveness.

In PvE, other than that fire storm is now basically worthless, I really haven't seen much difference in how elementalists play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

On the other hand, Air Elementalists are restricted to attacking one target. Alone, an Air Elementalist wont be able to kill anything past 3 monks, which implies the attack must be part of some kind of spike. Not all teams are strictly spike teams, so this narrows the use of an Air Elementalist. The utility skills he mentioned, Gale and Windborne Speed, both function well at 5 and 9 Air Magic, respectively. They can be effectively placed on someone whos attributes arent stretched that much.

Well, first, in all fairness, nobody on their own can kill anything past three monks, so that argument doesn't hold a lot of water. What I like about air is it has a lot more versatility than (in particular) fire. With air you can blind, knockdown, weaken, speed boost, and (sort of) interrupt, as well as do spike damage. With fire, well, you can do AoE, spike, burning, and a couple (slow) knockdowns.

Rico

a cadet · Dec 21, 2005, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Just to slightly defend my position in this, Mantra of Resolve is a must for any caster that uses long-casting spells. In the Fire Ele, all you need to do is make sure your attunements and Arcane Echo go uninterupted, Flame Burst is usually too fast to be interupted so it really isnt a must in that build.

As an example of someone that can spike on his own, look at warriors. The Eviscerate/Executioners spike can kill an unprotected caster usually, so if the rest of your team is doing something worthwhile, getting your warrior to do that spike can fell targets. On the other hand, i just dont see an Air Elementalist getting even close in that respect. Combine that with the fact that its single-target damage, and I just dont see a use outside of a spike.

Zeru · Dec 21, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

I dont actually know how old this post is, but i have to disagree with Ensign on some points.

In PvP, Fire Elementalists are actually quite usefull. Using Arcane Echo on Flameburst, and then just spamming it with 2 Attunements on is quite a considerable amount of damage. I dont really understand what he means by long cooldowns on Fire Elementalist skills either. For example, Fireball has a 7 second recharge, Flameburst a 5 second recharge, Rodgerts Invocation has a short recharge (I dont remember the number)... etc. On top of that, using Meteor Shower on an altar provides you with several seconds of interupts, as well as damage.

Flameburst isn't a viable skill outside of owning idiots. Though tombs is such a sad place nowadays that it could probably do halfway decently there.

For fire ele skills, basically you have immolate and fireball as your constant use skills, with a couple of other overpriced skills that you can use every once in awhile which really don't have a good enough effect for their cost. There's a good reason why fire eles are never seen in top tier gvg. They do ok in tombs since tombs is populated with morons but do you really want to use skills that depend on your enemy being bad to have good worth? The tombs maps certainly make them better than normal but that still rarely makes bringing a fire ele worth it.

Quote:

On the other hand, Air Elementalists are restricted to attacking one target. Alone, an Air Elementalist wont be able to kill anything past 3 monks, which implies the attack must be part of some kind of spike. Not all teams are strictly spike teams, so this narrows the use of an Air Elementalist. The utility skills he mentioned, Gale and Windborne Speed, both function well at 5 and 9 Air Magic, respectively. They can be effectively placed on someone whos attributes arent stretched that much.

This is silly. I can't think of any good build that doesn't have some kind of spike. Air eles fill a very specific role in what they do but it's still quite an important one.

Ensign · Dec 21, 2005, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

In PvP, Fire Elementalists are actually quite usefull. Using Arcane Echo on Flameburst, and then just spamming it with 2 Attunements on is quite a considerable amount of damage.

Assuming, of course, that the other team doesn't notice a nice squishy Elementalist on the front lines begging to have his face melted, and that the other team doesn't carry enchantment removal to turn your attunements into an energy battery.

I guess it's good against your standard iWay team, or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

I dont really understand what he means by long cooldowns on Fire Elementalist skills either. For example, Fireball has a 7 second recharge, Flameburst a 5 second recharge, Rodgerts Invocation has a short recharge (I dont remember the number)... etc.

Fireball is 7 seconds, 9 second recycle time. That's your only staple, so you'd better love it.

Flameburst is on a 5 second recharge. It also only does anything worth mentioning in the unstripped double attunements versus idiots scenario.

That Rodgort's on a 15 second recharge is actually in your examples of "fast recharging staples" really drives the point home about how shallow the line is.

(Hey, the line has Flare! Everyone loves Flare!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

On top of that, using Meteor Shower on an altar provides you with several seconds of interupts, as well as damage.

Meteor Shower is moderately interesting in dais maps, sure. I'm not going to spec to 16 Fire for a blindingly obvious target on a 60 second recharge. Sure, I'd run it if I had a reason to be there already, but Shower is not a reason unto itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

On the other hand, Air Elementalists are restricted to attacking one target.

Chain Lightning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

Alone, an Air Elementalist wont be able to kill anything past 3 monks

There's not a character in the game that's going to kill past 3 monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

Not all teams are strictly spike teams, so this narrows the use of an Air Elementalist.

You're right, only brainless 321spike teams have any use for characters with some spike potential. Everyone should take Eviscerate off their bars. There's no point in bringing one or two skills on a character that can quickly drop someone at low health. Nothing to see here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

The utility skills he mentioned, Gale and Windborne Speed, both function well at 5 and 9 Air Magic, respectively.

5 and 7. And yeah, if I was running a Fire Elementalist in tombs I'd probably run both of them since there's so little I want from Fire on my bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

In the Fire Ele, all you need to do is make sure your attunements and Arcane Echo go uninterupted

and unremoved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

Flame Burst is usually too fast to be interupted so it really isnt a must in that build.

Ok, maybe I'm not up on the current state of tombs, so you'll have to fill me in. Is tombs still in some dark age where no one strips enchantments ever, only iWay teams know anything about position and movement, where teams still mangle up in each other's faces, and everyone attacks the monks no matter how little sense it might make to do so? If that's the case then sure, Flame Burst might be playable.

In my experience playing against those retardo Flame Burst spammers, 2-3 people call him out within the first 10 seconds of the match with "here's a good target if you want to use your drains", and we're perfectly happy to pressurespike any elementalist foolish enough to run up to our midline. I have trouble imagining that other competitive teams act differently, but that may very well be the case. As I said, I haven't touched tombs seriously in a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

As an example of someone that can spike on his own, look at warriors. The Eviscerate/Executioners spike can kill an unprotected caster usually

Against an unprotected caster, with 16 axe and 10 strength, Eviscerate -> Executioner's is going to deal an average of 162 damage, plus a Deep Wound that'll knock off roughly another hundred depending on the target.

At 16 Air against the same target, a typical Lightning Orb -> Mind Shock spike will deal 280 damage plus knock down the target.

Neither is going to kill an unprotected caster, period. Either one can drop a target at half health in a pressure-based build. They both have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Personally I consider the discussion moot as the Eviscerate + Mind Shock spike is my favorite two man spike in the game, and the Axe + Air assist combo is a great addition to a wide variety of builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

so if the rest of your team is doing something worthwhile, getting your warrior to do that spike can fell targets.

If you only want one character with spike potential in a pressure build then sure, run a Warrior over an Air Ele. I don't see what this has to do with the usefulness of Air Eles vs. Fire Eles in PvP at all. Nor do I see how this particular example is relevant as builds with only a single character with spike potential tend to be complete and utter piles of hippo dung.

At risk of sounding redundant, Chain Lightning is an outstanding skill in a pressure build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

On the other hand, i just dont see an Air Elementalist getting even close in that respect.

In the interest of time I won't get into the gory details. But, for starters, you cannot kite Lightning Strike or Chain Lightning, Mind Shock is an anti-kite, Air Elementalists do not care about any of the plethora of anti-Warrior hate around, and are minimally affected by movement control. Lightning Strike isn't sexy but there's virtually nothing you can do to stop it.

But, again, why we're discussing the Air Ele vs. the Axe Warrior is again beyond my comprehension. They're my two favorite partners in crime, they're made for each other, and why has this worked into a discussion over which elemental line is better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by a cadet

Combine that with the fact that its single-target damage, and I just dont see a use outside of a spike.

You mean Lightning Orb, right? That's a spike skill. Chain Lightning and Lightning Strike both deal very good damage per energy and damage per time invested. There's nothing forcing you into a spike role. Of course even if you aren't in a spike role, there's not exactly anything wrong with having a Lightning Orb on your bar to help spike with. It is one of the best spike skills in the game, after all, and almost all the better ones are elite (competition from Dual Shot and Shatter Enchantment not withstanding), so I'd take that as a good reason to be in a line with a solid supporting cast.

Fire Eles? Well, I'll consider running one in PvP when I can put three copies of Fireball on my bar. I'll pass on the line in serious competition until then.

Peace,
-CxE